The Glasshouse

Frankie Jobling: So is there a sound that you associate with the North East?

Rachel Unthank: I’ve got a few, but then right now I’m thinking kittiwakes, but I was also thinking the Northumbrian Pipes because I’m a folkie.

Adrian McNally: I think the sound I associate with the North East more than any is silence. We live in Northumberland and the landscapes are vast and a bit eerie and that, you know, there’s this kind of sort of beautifulness but this darkness and it’s got this bloody past and all the trees are massive and it’s just got this stillness that makes you feel small and it’s good to feel small.

Frankie: Agreed.
Becky: Well, I would say it seems like a really obvious thing to say as a folk singer, but folk songs, so the songs of the sea and songs of the of the borders and stuff. So yeah, folk songs would be my answer.

Frankie: Great answers. Hello and welcome to Music Lives Here, the podcast from The Glasshouse which celebrates the complex and endlessly versatile music scene here in Newcastle and Gateshead. I’m Frankie Jobling, and in each episode it’s my pleasure to invite artists from all genres to share the storeys behind their relationship with music and their connection to the North East. Today I’m here with Rachel, Becky, and Adrian from Geordie folk royalty, The Unthanks.

Frankie: Hello!

Adrian: Hi!

Frankie: Oh yeah, nice to meet you.

Becky: Nice to meet you.

Frankie: Everyone’s met? Yeah, that’s good.
Frankie: Welcome to the Music Lives Here podcast, and can we take you through to the concourse to grab a drink?

Adrian: Sure, thank you.

Frankie: Drawing on traditional North East English music, The Unthanks are a nu-folk duo with Tyneside roots. Their mythical harmonies and adventurous blend of balladry with jazz, orchestral, and contemporary influences have made them one of the UK’s most acclaimed acts. More than musicians, these two are storytellers. The songs of sisters Rachel and Becky Unthanks are deeply intertwined with local history and voices. Along with bandmate and manager Adrian McNally, they’ve graced stages from Gateshead to Glastonbury, and on multiple occasions had their work recognised with Folk Album of the Year awards by BBC Radio 2 and MOJO magazine. I can’t wait to get into it.

Frankie: Well, it’s great to have you all here. Welcome to the Music Lives Here podcast. We’ll start by just diving straight in. We’re here at The Glasshouse, otherwise known as the home of music here in the North East, and you guys have a gig upstairs in a short while. So on this podcast, it’s all about the music and most importantly why music matters. So my first question is, what does music mean to you all?

Rachel: Everything.
[Laughter]
Rachel: Well, is that the right answer?

Becky: I think we are great music lovers as well as making music and singing and performing and making albums. We just love going to gigs and going to festivals and just being around music. I think it’s a way to process your feelings without even realising. It just has a magical effect where you just— it’s just like soothing. And I don’t know, it does something to your body and your mind, and it makes you relax and feel things and engage and it’s just magic.

Rachel: And it’s a big part of all of our family’s lives, me and Becky are sisters, and I know it’s a big part of Adrian’s upbringing as well. So I feel like it’s a way of bonding with people and a way of communicating. Certainly, like, it’s a big part of how we spend social time together as a family with our parents and with our children as well. And yeah, I think it’s like, it’s an, you know, intergenerational communicator.

Adrian: You might expect all musicians to sort of have answers like that, but in our experience, lots of musicians actually don’t like music that much. Just like there are footballers who don’t watch football matches, they only like playing it. We’re proper music heads, you know, we go and see huge amounts of music. We try and support as many artists as we can, legs up to younger artists where we can. And just when we’re in creative periods, you know, there are those who, you know, they’re, “Oh, I mustn’t listen to anything while I’m being creative. I’m going to shut myself away.” And none of that. You know, as soon as we’re into a creative period, I want to— I’m thirsty to hear other artists and it makes me contextualise how I feel about music myself and what inspires me and what doesn’t and what I want to do next. And yeah, it’s everything to us. And there’s lots of clichés about how music comes first before language and, you you know, know, it’s what we’ve all got in common, but it’s true. There is no more simple and no higher art in terms of the way it affects you in a way that you can’t have no words for.

Frankie: Yeah, gosh. You all sound very immersed in it?

Becky: Or obsessed, I don’t know.

Frankie: That’s a good way to be. So what does music mean to you here in this amazing venue?

Rachel: Oh, I think it’s like, me and Becky are from Gateshead, we’re from Ryton, and so it’s lovely to have somewhere so special that, you know, is dedicated to music. So, I mean, I remember it opening, I actually did a clog dance workshop at the opening of The Glasshouse, or the Sage Gateshead as it was then, and so now to be Artistic Partners, it feels like a lovely journey that we’ve done alongside this kind of fabulous building, and so it’s great to be entwined with it.

Adrian: I remember being here on the first weekend. It was like an open house. You could just wander between venues and just wander into gigs and back out again and stuff like that. I remember walking into Hall 2 and thinking, “Oh, he’s a cocky little sod. Who’s this?” And it was Maximo Park in their very early, before they broke. They were absolutely fantastic. And yeah, just the space itself just sounded— I mean, they sounded incredible, but the space was making them sound incredible as well. And Hall Two is a real asset for bands, including— we don’t have many stand-up shows in there. I think there should be more. It’s such a fantastic space in a kind of indie rock way, as well as in a sort of nice, sort of let’s sit down and listen to something more considered. It’s a great space.

Frankie: Well, we’ll circle back to more about The Glasshouse because I really want to hear about that, but for now I want to hear about you guys and your motivations and inspirations in music. Becky and Rachel’s cited inspirations include artists like Nick Drake and Robert Wyatt, and they’ve been very open about how much family and the folk music they grew up with that shaped them and their sound. They both even got into singing in the first place so that they could get into folk festivals for free. I was really interested to hear how they grew up surrounded by sea shanties, poetry, old ballads, and clog dancing, and how that lot has fed into their work today.

Rachel: I think going back to the family aspect, for me and Becky, we— it was a big part of our upbringing, and so the motivation was to like join in really and just be part of the, you know, a family occasion, singing a song to each other, and then wider than that in the folk scene?

Becky: I think in the folk scene there’s— it’s not like, oh, you’re a singer, you’re not a singer. Everyone does everything. It’s very inclusive in that way. So it was— yeah, it’s about community and joining in, and we were always encouraged to sing. I never thought I would do it as a job. It’s amazing to be able to do that. And, you know, we’ve really— particularly, I feel like I’ve really learned on the journey, learned my craft, and I’ve still, still got a lot to learn. But it’s, yeah, it’s a pleasure to be able to, to make music together.

Frankie: So have you always been performers then, in that sense?

Rachel: Only as in, like, we would sing at a family party or in a clog dance team. So we’ve always performed in that way and sung in choir. I sang in choirs, so on a small level, I guess. And then as we got older, we have a brother as well who’s just a year and a half younger than me, and we kind of thought, well, you know, he was like, I could play my fiddle for a clog team and then we could go to a folk festival for free and see our friends. And I was like, mate, Becky, if we get some songs together, like, that’s a way of us getting to go to places we want to go and it’s kind of just got out of hand.

Becky: Meeting Adrian was quite a helpful point in our career.

Adrian: I was a non-stage member of this band for like the first 4 or 5 years. I didn’t really do my piano practise as a kid. I’m a two-bit musician, but I have a head full of music because I grew up being exposed to so much as a listener by my parents. So I had the ideas but not the confidence to play, so I would try and put those ideas through better musicians than me and do all the kind of— I suppose it was a time that the music industry was dying as it was and becoming a cottage industry and you had to be able to do everything yourself. So I was running the label and doing all the PR and producing the records. Doing all the engineering live and everything but get on stage.

Rachel: Until we just bullied him into it in the end, didn’t we?

Adrian: Yeah, pretty much. And to say that I thought I’d never, you know, I was in bands when I was in my teens and stuff and just messing about, but I thought that was pretty much it, me done. So to find myself like 20 years later scoring for BBC Proms and orchestrating music for Royal Northern Sinfonia, and I stood up reading my music and being music director for these guys and what have you. I pinch myself. I still feel like a huge imposter, which is sometimes a problem.

Frankie: It’s a part of being a creative, I think.

Adrian: I think lots of creatives do feel like that. Yeah. So I know I’m not alone in that, in that respect. And what does give me confidence is all that musical education I received as a kid. You know, I feel very strong about the way I feel about music and my understanding of it in all its genres and forms and periods of history and everything that makes me feel like I’ve got something to give.

Frankie: And you’ve all achieved so much together, but what was it like starting out on the local circuit?

Becky: I think for us two it was quite— the folk world is so niche, you know, it’s like such a pocket of the bigger, brilliant, vibrant musical scene in the North East. And the folk scene was also vibrant, but it took us a while to find other young people. We had to, you know, to— it was a lot of our influences are our parents’ generation, really, and they’re brilliant influences, like the songs that we’ve learn from them are just— they’re— they have— they are across all of our albums, and they’ve really, like, there’s just a huge resource for us and inspiration.

Rachel: And then actually Folkworks, which is part of The Glasshouse, they had like youth summer schools, and which we both went to at different points. And, and that was really amazing to be able to like meet other young people who were interested in the same thing and and, you know, and give a kind of— just like, get different kinds of teachers and just kind of, you know, I think, oh, is it— oh, some people can be touring musicians, or raise your expectations of what you can do with folk music, I think.

Becky: But it’s not until we made our first album, I think, that we moved into the world of of music rather than just being considered, considering ourselves or being considered folk musicians. It’s like from the first album, then we got some recognition from people like MOJO magazine and then it was like, “Oh!” 6Music. 6Music, yeah. It’s like, and then it kind of just went on a journey from there.

Adrian: Rachel and Becky grew up singing in folk clubs and everyone sings. In the folk club and everyone sings, you know, from the same position, which is from the floor as against on the stage. And sort of convincing them as young people, having grown up in that, that anyone would or should pay for them, to pay to see them perform and sort of take that jump from the floor to the stage and become an artist as against just a participant was like a, you know, that was a bit of a clunk. I think that’s true of a lot of people in, in that world. And yeah, we’ve reconciled our feelings with that, I suppose, over the years by running our singing residentials where people come and participate with us in huge numbers annually. And we’ve been doing that for 15 years, and that, you know, that kind of gives us a feeling that we’re still kind of linked to that, you know, that function of folk music as being one of participation rather than audience and up here and— sorry, down there and an artist up there sort of thing.

Frankie: It’s a pretty amazing journey then to start out and struggle to find your people and then to have achieved what you’ve achieved and give back to that community that you started in. Like, that’s it’s really special that you do that.

Rachel: Thank you.

Adrian: And it gives back to us, I mean, to be honest, because nobody— very few people pay for recorded music anymore. The real reason, the whole reason we’re still here, being able to be as creatively adventurous as we are and to have as many personnel on stage as we do, is down to the fact that our singing residentials almost bankroll what we do creatively. Now. So yes, we do give back to the world of participation, but it’s also keeping us afloat and making what we do still possible.

Rachel: But also for the soul, I would say that, like, when you’re on tour, it’s brilliant. I mean, it’s really— when you’re on the stage and you connect with so many music audience members, that feels amazing. But then you travel from town to town and then to like come and be in a room with people and sing together and feel like you’re like a small part of a big whole. It’s a real connecting thing, and I think it really puts you, your faith back in people and the power of music to make connection. And because you see it happening before your eyes, whereas, you know, on the stage you can’t always see all the people. And it’s lovely to see people forming connections through, and friendships and confidence through singing together. It’s brilliant.

Frankie: Yeah, I think community music’s just, it’s the best. When I started working here, I’d been an artist previously and then I started teaching and yeah, just working with people on that level is just really special and it’s like being really fulfilling. So I know exactly what you mean. So I’ve got some lyrics from one of your earlier songs that stood out to me as someone who’s grown up in Newcastle all their life. It’s from The Great Northern River. I’ve got the lyrics here, it would be lush if you could read them out if that’s alright.

Rachel: Although this might be a bit of a shocker, it was originally written about the Tees.

Frankie: No way! Well, you’ve reclaimed it.

Rachel Go on, Bex.

Becky: Seagulls wheel over, wild river cats down on the jetties are watching. Nights by the docks, packed smoky pubs, plenty of shouting and swearing, heavy brown ale, thick muddy stout, and nobody’s caring. A lass starts to warble a popular song.

Frankie: So lush. The imagery is amazing, I love it.

Rachel: That’s written by Graham Miles. So he was from Kent, I think, but he moved to Teesside when he was like a child and lived and worked in Teesside, and he wrote loads of amazing, like hundreds of amazing songs about Teesside and North Yorkshire. But I think, you know, I mean, yeah, that is like, it’s so identifiable as a northeastern town, and I think it’s transferable totally to Tyneside as well. It’s really evocative, isn’t it? You can sense the atmosphere. And he was like, he was just really good at doing that, like whether it be up on the moors or in an industrial setting. That was what, like, like really one of his skills was to like capture that atmosphere.

Frankie: And has that kind of writing informed your songwriting and process?

Rachel: I think we were like tentative songwriters because we grew up in the folk scene. We felt like, well, why would I write a song? There’s so many great songs that I want to sing. Like, I still haven’t done that yet. And I think as we’ve got older and further, you know, just down our musical careers and paths, it’s like, oh, maybe I could write a song. Like maybe I could, you know.

Becky: I think Graeme’s music has, Graeme’s writing has influenced our writing and ’cause actually, you know, he, as Rachel said, he went to, worked in industry and spent time, did you say that? In places that he wrote about and actually they’re quite simple and straightforward in a way, so almost like a documentation of something and I think that that has inspired our writing because it’s straightforward and genuine in a way.

Adrian: Graeme’s well respected and well known within perhaps the North East folk community, but he’s beyond that, you know, largely unknown and uncelebrated, and that our sort of compulsion imperative is far greater to to bring somebody like him to attention than it is to write a song ourselves. And particularly when, you know, what’s a folk song? Oh, what, traditional song? Oh, what does that mean? It just means that we don’t know who wrote it. So the idea that there are, you know, contemporary folk songs by songwriters we do know that are equally as important and should be, you know, treasured and passed down as those that we regard as traditional, being something that we You know, it’s not that we feel we have a responsibility to do that, but I think it’s a responsible thing to do and a respectful thing to do. And it’s, you know, ultimately it’s like making compilation tapes for your friend or your girlfriend when you’re a teenager. That’s what we were doing essentially. They’re just love letters to these songs that we want other people to like as much as as we do and to remember us for a long time.

Frankie: So if people were coming fresh to your music, how would you describe your sound and where would you want them to start listening?

Becky: That’s such a hard question, yeah, but I would— I understand why you would ask that.

Rachel: Yeah, because it is firmly rooted in the North East. Like, people always comment that we sing in our own accents, which to us is mind-blowing. It’s like, well, why wouldn’t you? But like, because we grew up in the folk scene where that was encouraged, and so it’s very firmly rooted in the North East and in folk music. But as Adrian was saying before, we’re massive music lovers and we listen to all different kinds of genres, and that really informs our sound. So it’s hard to explain because it’s not straight down the— we’re not trad— We’re not proper trads, traditional kind of performers, but—

Adrian: One of our most successful pieces of music is called Mount the Air, and that came from a 4-line Dorset poem in a book of poems, and it is musically mostly inspired by Sketches of Spain by Miles Davis. Neither of those things have got anything to do with the North East or Rachel and Becky’s heritage, and we are like magpies in that sense, in that you know, we don’t really have any prejudice when it comes to music or any agenda either, really. So again, you know, in terms of like the way that we’re perceived as exponents of North East culture, yes, that’s great. It’s a responsible thing to do, but we don’t feel the responsibility. If we want to make a techno album next, we will.

Adrian: We probably won’t.

Frankie: Ooh!
Becky: You never know.

Frankie: You heard it here first.

Rachel: I’m getting me glowsticks out!

Adrian: But that is how, you know, that is how we feel about music. And in terms of like where to start, well, a long time ago, and it’s still, you know, you still see festivals full of bills now because we’re not bringing new artists through because nobody’s buying records. That festival bills are full of artists that had a hit a long time ago, and that’s what everyone wants to hear. And you know, you might tolerate their new album, but really you want to hear the old song that you remember, and that’s what everyone’s waiting for. Well, we started at a point after which that stopped being the case. And so, like, when somebody’s starting with our music now, or maybe it’s a fan who’s coming for the 8th time and is thinking, do I need to see The Unthanks an 8th time, or do I need a 10th Unthanks record? Well, our job is to make sure that we’re guaranteeing that it’s different every time rather than the old old-school way of guaranteeing it’s going to be the same every time. And that’s just a new world of music where bands don’t really have hits anymore.

Adrian: So you’ve got to make sure that you’re constantly engaging with your audience in new ways and finding new ways to stay relevant both to your fans and to newcomers.

Becky: Apart from our next album that we haven’t written yet, that’s going to be a big hit.

Rachel: Say it. Put it out loud!

Frankie: It’s in the universe!

Adrian: Exactly.

Rachel: Our most popular song is a song called Magpie, which is written by Dave Dodds, who was a man from Cornwall who was a friend of our stepdad’s, Jim, who’s called Jim McGean, and he gave it to him because he’s a Newcastle United supporter and it’s about magpies. And that just seems to be the most popular song we sing, doesn’t it? So you could always start there.

Frankie: I heard it on The Detectorists and I was like to my partner, oh my God, these guys are from the North East!

Rachel: Yes, it was on Detectorists. It was also on True Detective and Vera and, Young Sherlock

Becky: Who is going to be a detective.

Rachel: So it’s quite weird, some weird detecting, detective link.

Frankie: It’s got a mysterious feel to it. You’re listening to Music Lives Here, recorded on location in The Glasshouse. I’m with Tyneside music pioneers The Unthanks, who’ll be taking to the stage here in just a couple of hours. The Unthanks are here talking to me today because later tonight they’re playing a very special gig. It’s part of their Friday Night Club series, which is an eclectic mix of local talent. Tonight they have witchcraft lecturers, musicians, and even a silent film improviser, so I want to find out more.

Frankie: Well, that all sounds really exciting. And another exciting thing that’s happening is the gig tonight, so I was wondering if you could tell me a bit more about that.

Rachel: Well, it’s kind of designed— so it’s called Friday Night Club, and, basically we try to design it around the kind of night out we would like to have. So therefore it’s a mixture of different genres. There’s a bit of, um, there’s some, you know, tonight there is like— well, Adrian, I think you should say more about it actually, because it was, I think it was your seed of thought of it originally.

Adrian: Well, it’s just about, you know, we make folk music, that’s regarded as the music of the people, that’s sort of often regarded as low culture. We want— it’s the same with our project with [Royal Northern Sinfonia], that’s about making, you know, the origins of that folk music, taking them somewhere else and proving that it’s as high a quality in music as anything that we regard as high culture. But the other thing we like to do is knock those walls down between high and low and different types and just give, like, some assumption to the intelligence of the audience that we all like all sorts of things, don’t we? You know, we live in increasingly, you know, there’s homogenous problems with increasing, increasingly genreless, boundaryless culture, but there’s lots of good aspects to that as well. So we want to put, you know, we want to put some Ligetti by some RNS players right next to Robson Cooper, who’s—

Rachel: Cooper Robson!
Frankie: He’s my friend!

Adrian: Cooper Robson, sorry!

Becky: He was brilliant!
Rachel: He did the last one!

Becky: He was so great!
Adrian: We want to put something really posh next to a foul-mouthed Geordie.

Rachel: Sorry.

Adrian: And everything in between, you know. Brilliant. And also we want to— we’re aware that they’re, you know, The Glasshouse is a big shiny building. There’s lots of independent culture in Newcastle run by independent venues such as The Globe and the Cumberland and The Cluny and so on. And sometimes it feels like never the twain shall meet and that they have sort of different audience bases and what have you. And we want to sort of try and bring those worlds more together as well.

Frankie: Sounds really important and great. And this isn’t the first time you’ve played here. Your music’s lived here on many occasions, and outside of gigs, I know you’ve even hosted, like, sing-alongs on the concourse. So what is it that keeps bringing you back here? Is it the audiences The Glasshouse attracts? Is it the acoustics, the culture, all of the above?

Rachel: It’s a mixture, I think, isn’t it? Well, we’re usually related to at least 50% of them, so, uh, maybe not that many. But I think, I don’t know, I mean, I think there’s something— I don’t know if everybody feels the same about when they go into their hometown, but there’s always like an extra, like, extra level of pressure because you really want people to like, like what you do. Yeah, you want to impress people. And then, but also people are on your— so really on your side and want you do well as well, and that’s like a great combination of like a little tshh in the air.

Adrian: Yeah, I think for most artists it will be their hometown and their capital city, whatever country they might happen to come from. So for us, you know, the pressure of playing in London and knowing that the press are there or whatever, and the pressure of playing at home and knowing that you have to earn your stripes in your backyard kind of thing, and they’re both like shows that you feel excited about but also a little bit anxious about.

Becky: But it is true, Geordies are so friendly.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, it is.

Becky: The rumours are true.
Rachel: The rumours are true.

Frankie: Yeah, I might be biased, but I agree very much. So you’ve talked to me about community music and the residentials you do, and also the Friday night club. Here at The Glasshouse, we’re super passionate about helping emerging North East artists And for people who are aspiring to be one of the voices up on stage with you, or just to be an artist in general, do you have any advice that you would give them?

Rachel: Like, be true to yourself.

Becky: It really resonates with an audience if you’re being yourself, so find a way to be yourself.

Rachel: Yeah, it doesn’t like necessarily matter if you don’t do everything perfectly, but audiences can really sense like if you’re being your genuine self, I think.

Becky: And don’t be alone, like find people to work with that you like to make relationships with, whether you’re a solo artist or not, it really helps to like talk to other people and just reach out, because everybody is like, you think, oh, should I reach out to that person, just have a chat or see if they want to play some music together, like 99% of the time that person will be delighted that you’ve asked them them. Yeah. And it just— but it’s that taking that leap.
Rachel: Good advice.
Becky: Or start a band with your sister.
Rachel: Yes.

Frankie: Yeah, that helps.
Becky: It’s going well for me.

Frankie: So finally, what is next for you right now today?

Rachel: Oh, we’re about to go to soundcheck, aren’t we, for our Friday night club. So we’ll be getting our clogs out, getting on, doing a little bit of warm-up, vocal warm-up.

Frankie: Lush, can I tag along to soundcheck with you then?
Becky: Yes, come with us.

Frankie: Yay, thank you!

Frankie: We are backstage, backstage of Hall 2, just getting some water before we head into the soundcheck for Friday Night Club. So it’s lots of corridors and halls, and there’s a head lots of pipes and wires and it’s quite industrial looking. In front of us there’s a dressing room and a big table full of drinks and crisps and wine, which we would call the rider that you get before your gig.

Rachel: I’ve been clogging since I was 15.

Frankie: Really?

Rachel: And then I was like, I guess I could actually have another pair? So I’ve got a jazzy pair now.

Frankie: Oh nice. So we’re currently stood at the back of the stage in Hall 2, looking out at where the audience will be in a few hours. And the room is crazy. It kind of looks like a spaceship. There’s a lot of like red panels and red lights and shadows, and then the stage lights are all blue. This is a gig space, but on the floor in front of the stage, the tables are set out in a cabaret style. And with all of the red lighting and sort of dark atmospheric vibe in the room, It feels a little bit like a jazz club setting. And that sound that you can hear is Becky and Rachel testing out their clogs on stage.

I would describe it as eerie and a bit piratey. The Indian harmonia is like a big wooden box that kind of looks like a tiny wooden piano, and it has like a fan on the front that you press, and then you play the keys at the same time, and that’s how it makes the sound.

Becky: [Singing] It’s time to go now.

Frankie: I love talking to Rachel, Becky, and Adrian, and it was such a treat to go to soundcheck and get a sneak peek of their gig, hear those haunting harmonies, and have my first ever taste of clog dancing. I hope you all enjoyed it. If you did, please give us a like, a subscribe, or just tell your friends. It would be a huge help. Music Lives Here is brought to you by The Glasshouse International Centre for Music, a home for music lovers with gigs, concerts, and classes every week in Gateshead Quays, out in communities across the North East, and online. Anyone can join us in creating and celebrating our understanding music. Music lives and grows here.

Frankie: Once again, my thanks to Becky, Rachel, and Adrian of The Unthanks. I’m Frankie Jobling, the producer is Jacob Dabb, and the executive producers are Debbie Kilbride and Jo Rowntree, with music composed by Chad Rogers.

This has been a Loftus Media production, and until next time, gan canny.